MudSkipper asked:"Why do Christians pray? I mean, God is omniscient, and pretty much knows what you are thinking before you even think of it. Every time I go over to a Christian person's house for dinner, which is fairly often, I often ask myself that question when we pause to pray. "We" being the 3rd person way of being polite, since it is really "They" who pause ( With a curious look on my face as I look at the somber lot talking to someone who isn't there). What could you possibly say, or ask for, that God in his omniscience, doesn't already know? What do they hope to accomplish? Do they want to change God's mind? . . . . He even knows that you would ask him, and has already issued a response before you even asked!"
? ? ? ? ?
Why do we pray if God already knows what we are going to say? Steve (MudSkipper) has deemed this a "Silly Question" on his blog, but I think it's a rather good one. I'm going to open this one up to reader-response.
Comment Away!
In Christ's Love,
Matthew
26 comments:
We pray to God for many reasons. First of all God commands it (1 Thess. 5:17). It opens communication between God and us. Yes God knows all- but we don't. The communication goes both directions. We pray to show thankfulness to God. We pray to give God praise for who He is. We acknowledge that He is Lord of our lives. Yes, sometimes we ask for things or answers to questions. He already knows what we need but He still wants us to ask and through prayer we receive the answers that we need. Prayer is not about just asking for things- it is communicating with a personal Lord and Savior and is a privilege that you can only understand after you have repented, believed and trusted in Jesus.
Love in Christ,
Butterfly
We pray because Jesus Himself prayed to God.
We follow by His example!
In Christian Love,
Brittany
Ok
God needs to be thanked.
God needs praise.
Acknowledge he is lord.
God already knows all of these things. You forget that he is omniscient. An omniscient God would KNOW he is great, and wouldn't need to be told, especially by a lowly mortal such as yourself.
He has a very shallow ego, that needs to be constantly stroked, Ok,
I get it now.
Name me one useful thing God has told you in a prayer. (BTW, Ray said people who hear from God are crazy. Do you agree?)
"God already knows all of these things. You forget that he is omniscient. An omniscient God would KNOW he is great, and wouldn't need to be told, especially by a lowly mortal such as yourself."
I see the concept of a relationship eludes you. It's not read Butterfly's post again, it's fairly comprehensive. It's not about informing God of anything, it's about communication. You've never told someone something they already knew just as an excuse to talk to them?
"Name me one useful thing God has told you in a prayer. (BTW, Ray said people who hear from God are crazy. Do you agree?)"
He said that? If that's really what he said, then of course I disagree... I heard from God today, Steve. I've been struggling with depression and He showed me how wrong my approach to solving it was and what I needed to change, as well as answering about 14 prayers from the past week. These are personal conversations, Steve, don't expect me to hand over transcripts or anything.
I'd like to see the Ray Comfort quote, by the way.
In Christ's Love,
Matthew
what was the better way of dealing with depression? (one that I wouldn't have thought of, like taking medicine.) Maybe a special new medicine that cures depression that he gave you the ingredients for?
That would be great if you had transcripts, so I could actually verify that it is miraculous. Otherwise, I assume you are just making it up.
It's a shame you would deem me a liar simply so you wouldn't have to risk looking at things in a new light.
"what was the better way of dealing with depression?"
A simple principal that somehow had eluded me: We fight physical battles with physical weapons, and spiritual battles with spiritual weapons. God showed me that my depression was a spiritual battle, and that I had been trying to fight it by physical means (medicine, friends, etc.). It was an answer to long prayed prayer that Had been skillfully laid piece by piece over the past week, like puzzle pieces that look like nothing more than a jumbled mess until they are all in place.
I expect I've just wasted a lot of time and energy, as you will either "assume [I am] just making it up" or mock me for being so easily satisfied (it really wasn't easy, but it sounds that way when you only have the Reader's Digest version - and I'm not sure I feel like giving any more detail than that to someone who probably won't even take it seriously).
I'm praying for you, Steve. And here's a message from God through me to you: Read 1 Corinthians 2:14.
great.
I'm glad you are at least feeling better, even if I don't believe you.
Making stuff up doesn't make you a "liar." You may believe that this is happening, but people believe stuff all the time that isn't true.
I'm just curious why you chose to waste your prayers on yourself, when you can fix that by yourself, when there are people starving. Depression is nothing compared to starving to death.
It's curious. Christians pray for stuff that would have happened any way. Why don't you pray for a cure for cancer, or a miracle crop to feed everyone?
The 1 Corinthians 2:14 is really good. A perfect exercise in circular reasoning.
BTW I hope you get better and that I haven't contributed to your depression (I have that affect on people haha)
"great.
I'm glad you are at least feeling better, even if I don't believe you."
Thanks for the compliment, but you're giving me too much credit - I'm not that creative.
"Making stuff up doesn't make you a "liar." You may believe that this is happening, but people believe stuff all the time that isn't true."
Like macro-evolution? Lol, just playin'
"I'm just curious why you chose to waste your prayers on yourself, when you can fix that by yourself, when there are people starving. Depression is nothing compared to starving to death."
My depression was affecting my ability to serve God BECAUSE it focused all of my attention on myself. That's what made it urgent. And I do pray for world events.
"It's curious. Christians pray for stuff that would have happened any way."
No we don't. I prayed for you, didn't I?
"Why don't you pray for a cure for cancer, or a miracle crop to feed everyone?"
Who says I don't? I spend far more time in prayer than you seem to have assumed.
"The 1 Corinthians 2:14 is really good. A perfect exercise in circular reasoning."
Those are Gods words. I don't see it as circular, but if you do then take it up with Him, not me.
"BTW I hope you get better and that I haven't contributed to your depression (I have that affect on people haha)"
Actually your determination is encouraging.
In Christ's Love,
Matthew
P.S. - I'd still like to see the Ray Comfort quote.
Sorry, I can't find the Ray quote. He writes so much junk, its hard to search. It's not really important any way.
Curing your own depression isn't *useful*. I was looking for some sort of miraculous event that would show me that God exists. People overcome depression everyday, every second in fact. It doesn't take prayer.
In fact, in clinical trials prayer have been shown to be ineffective. Professor Sloan came to my university one time and delivered a speech, a condensed version of his book, Blind Faith. You should check it out.
Anyway,
I'm off to the U. Got to tutor some foreigners in English. ARGGG
"I was looking for some sort of miraculous event that would show me that God exists."
I gave you something simple because you wouldn't have believed anything out of the ordinary.
"In fact, in clinical trials prayer have been shown to be ineffective."
I'm sure it has (although other clinical trials have shown it to be quite effective), I'm more suspiscious of the trials that show the opposite - testing God is grossly unbiblical.
"Anyway,
I'm off to the U. Got to tutor some foreigners in English. ARGGG"
Sounds fun... lol. Spanish was hard enough, but I've heard English is one of the hardest languages to learn as an adult...
I would put my money on Chinese as the hardest to learn.
Yeah, testing him is a sin. He doesn't want us to go and start believ'n in him now does he.
He loves blind faith. that brittany person whould get her own mansion (in the words of terry). Monkey see, monkey do. That's what he likes.
curious george see, curious george do. haha
"curious george see, curious george do. haha"
Yeah, I found it ironic, too, when I first read it...
Call it convenient if you wish, but God isn't a circus animal to perform on demand - and to expect Him to answer your prayers the way you'd like Him to as part of a test is almost laughable from my perspective.
"He doesn't want us to go and start believ'n in him now does he."
It doesn't take a genius to look around at this world and say "Somebody must have put this here," the real faith is in saying it put itself here - and since you still haven't explained how matter could have done that I'm going to stick to my position.
"I would put my money on Chinese as the hardest to learn."
I would agree. That would be quite the transition.
Matt,
If you are going to feign the use of logic and empiricism, you should be consistent and subject your God to the same standard of evidence you ask me to use. I guess I expected as much, since God is not falsifiable.
"Somebody must have put this here,"
Finally, we agree on something, one problem though; What makes you think it was SOMEBODY and not SOMETHING?
monkey see monkey do.
I liken myself to a highly educated monkey, so I have no problem poking fun at myself in that respect.
I imagine the adventures of curious george as a metaphor for the human experience. Its more profound than a simple childrens book, haha
"If you are going to feign the use of logic and empiricism, you should be consistent and subject your God to the same standard of evidence you ask me to use. I guess I expected as much, since God is not falsifiable."
Question: Do you own a television?
"Finally, we agree on something, one problem though; What makes you think it was SOMEBODY and not SOMETHING?"
The more I study, the more I see that the planet earth seems to be balanced on a pin-point for human existence. If you were to walk into your backyard and see 93 small, round stones laid on the ground in the shape of the words "HELLO STEVE" would you conclude that someTHING or someONE put them there? It seems, to me, that the whole universe is simply too orderly for someTHING to have caused it. Everything works together perfectly, well everything except humans, that is. We couldn't make something this orderly if we tried, which is why I conclude that whoever made this place was certainly smarter than us.
"monkey see monkey do.
I liken myself to a highly educated monkey, so I have no problem poking fun at myself in that respect... I imagine the adventures of curious george as a metaphor for the human experience. Its more profound than a simple childrens book, haha"
Yes, many profound books can appear childish at first glance. Curious George is awesome, by the way. ;-)
OK matt,
I've heard this argument many times over the years. Sometimes they say, your name on a beach, your name carved in stone, Some technical device in your back yard, the car windshield wipers ad infinitum. They always change the metaphor just a little bit, and we have to start over again.
OK,
Things that appear orderly must have had some intelligent mind making the order right?
Wrong.
Humans are pattern seeking animals, it's in our nature because it has an evolutionary advantage (side point). Dawkins called this the "agency detector." Primitive people saw Pan in the face of leaves, you can imagine that a curled up leaf might resemble a human face. Any way,
Order can arise from non order very easily. It is a consequence of physics and chemistry. Take my abiogenesis example for one. Blind, dumb physics and chemical reactions can create the building blocks of life.
Take snow flakes. Amazingly complex, each one unique. Just blind physics.
Do I own a television? I assume you are alluding to the argument from complexity. Maybe some reference to the human eye?
A television is irreducibly complex, right?
Wrong. Creationists really should stay away from using anything mechanical, because honestly, everything evolves.
The first television set didn't have video. In fact, it was a radio. And the first radio wasn't a radio, it was a telephone, etc etc, back to two tin cans on a string.
Each step added something *useful* and hence was selected for in the evolutionary process.
My eyes are amazingly complex.
But Darwin suggested a way that they could have been selected for in Origins.
Each mutation which bestows upon its barer, some advantage will be selected for.
The adage, "in the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king," applies here. Imagine and eye that can detect only light and perhaps a little movement. This would give its owner great advantage in a land full of blind creatures.
Ok, lets see what other metaphors we have...
Oh, as far as some sort of anthropic principle you should check of Victor Stenger, he wrote a book on the subject.
As far as "HELLO STEVE" you are trying to anthropamorphize here. We don't see anything like that in nature. We see everything wants to kill us, every hour we need to feed ourselves, avoid danger, cancer, we are really lucky we don't die when we are born. Everything is perfect? I dare you to stand in the Sahara around lion feeding time to test your hypothesis.
Lets look at your "HELLO STEVE" example. This is a little fallacious in the way you presented it, bt I'm going to break it down for you.
Given the forces of evolution namely;
1) traits are inherited
2) good traits are selected for
3) everything dies.
Let's run a simulation.
First we have
"H"
H isn't very useful, but is does a job. It makes a "H" sound, which is useful in the brutal world of the alphabet.
Ok, H has a mutation and gets an "E". now we have "HE"
WOW ! in two generations we have already formed a WORD! This would REALLY be selected for.
Now we are making progress!
Ok etc etc.
We get to HELL. Oh crap.
Nevermind that.
We get to HELLO. Etc etc.
HELLO Steve!
Viola.
Not impossible. Just a product of evolution. Amazing isn;t it?
"Order can arise from non order very easily. It is a consequence of physics and chemistry. Take my abiogenesis example for one. Blind, dumb physics and chemical reactions can create the building blocks of life.
Take snow flakes. Amazingly complex, each one unique. Just blind physics."
Okay, two things:
1. Snow flakes are amazingly complex, but their complexity contributes nothing more than making them more attractive - it is amazing, but not beneficial.
2. When you stated, "Order can arise from non order very easily," you violated the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. In the words of Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington, "But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics, I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation."
"Do I own a television? I assume you are alluding to the argument from complexity. Maybe some reference to the human eye?
A television is irreducibly complex, right?"
Wow... you wasted TONS of time, energy, and space explaining the problem with the argument I wasn't even presenting... and you didn't even answer the question. I wasn't talking about irreducible complexity, so: Do you own a television?
" Everything is perfect? I dare you to stand in the Sahara around lion feeding time to test your hypothesis."
And I dare you to ponder what might happen if the earth were tilted even slightly on its axis, moved slightly closer or farther away from the sun, or grew slightly greater in size.
"Given the forces of evolution namely;
1) traits are inherited
2) good traits are selected for
3) everything dies."
I wasn't referring to living things, that's why I used STONES in my metaphor. Honestly, Steve, read between the lines a little. ;-)
"Ok etc etc.
We get to HELL. Oh crap."
Ah... so THAT'S where evolution gets us... I see.
"HELLO Steve!
Viola.
Not impossible. Just a product of evolution. Amazing isn;t it?"
Yep. Would have been more amazing if it had been in all caps like mine was, though...
your last post was pure garbage. Everything you said is wrong. Not one piece was right.
honestly, I would expect something like that from Ray. I don't want to insult you, but come on.
You are now wasting my time.
I will not talk to you any further.
That's a shame. Oh well, goodbye, MudSkipper.
Sorry to end so abruptly. I shouldn't be so upset with you, since you are just a kid and probably haven't read any atheist or evolution books yet.
My girlfriend was the same way, and my brother tries to debate me on evolution, even though when I ask him how many books on the subject he has read, he says "none." Strange coming from a biology graduate. So if an adult biology graduate can make the same mistake you do, I shouldn't be hard on you. He just got hold of some silly website like Ray's.
But honestly, you need to go check out a book at the library. Just read 3 or 4 books. 2 on evolution and 2 on atheism. If that doesn't convince you, at least you won't piss people like me off (for instance by saying that order violates the 2nd law) when you try and debate.
You have potential Matt. I would hate to see it wasted on a bankrupt belief system, or have people laugh at a smart person who choses to entertain stupid ideas (I'm speaking partially to you and to my own brother.)
Any way,
once you have read the 4 books, write back to me. Until that time, take it easy.
Bye
Some ideas for books;
Born again skeptics guide to the bible. Ruth Green
The Blind Watchmaker--by Richard Dawkins
Why Atheism by George Smith
"You have potential Matt. I would hate to see it wasted on a bankrupt belief system, or have people laugh at a smart person who choses to entertain stupid ideas (I'm speaking partially to you and to my own brother.)"
Thank you, Steve! You've added another to my prayer list. Now I can pray for your brother. What's his name?
I appreciate your concern for my mental health, but honestly I delight in your ridicule, Steve. Honestly, if atheists spent half as much time tearing apart Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and Jews as they did Christians, my faith might actually be shaken. I would gladly be a fool serving my Father in Heaven rather than be the wisest man alive who rejected God (which would by an oxymoron, by the way). I don't expect atheists and evolutionists to be my biggest fans, Steve, nor do I ask them to be. God's approval is by far more important to me.
"Any way,
once you have read the 4 books, write back to me. Until that time, take it easy.
Bye
Some ideas for books;
Born again skeptics guide to the bible. Ruth Green
The Blind Watchmaker--by Richard Dawkins
Why Atheism by George Smith"
I appreciate the reading list, Steve, I'll have to look into it. In the mean time, allow me to recommend some books for you:
Genesis, Esther, John, and Romans. (I put a good deal of thought into that list, so don't assume I was trying to be funny and ignore it) I suspect the books I've listed are considerable shorter than the ones you're asking me to read, so I don't think I'm being unreasonable.
If you're questions are sincere, then you won't mind God answering them Himself.
In Christ's Love,
Matthew
My brother's name begins with a P (God will know who i'm talking about). Just say Mr. P and angels will connect you. I've been feeling a little funny since you started praying for me, like a burning sensation in my stomach. haha, J/k ya know.
All these reasoned "conversations end in agnosticism"? I think you might be coming over to the dark side Matt.
Don't call it ridicule, call it "constructive criticism."
In Agnostic Love
-steve
hey matt,
I posted a test on my blog that you should take. This should make things a little easier.
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